@NetshadeX the answer is yes, everyone who's had a hand in slave trading is a bad guy, and the biggest, baddest guys of all are those countries who had a hand in that and then built up their economic power to the point they started to see themselves as the center of Earth and "civilized society", which in turn gave birth to eugenics and the further degrading and exploiting of "non-whites" to the point that stuff like the Jim Crow laws, the Holocaust, the Apartheid and systemic racism in general became embedded in society. You may argue for some complexity in minutiae all you want, it doesn't change the effects of everything that happened and who is currently profiting off of it (protip: it's white males).
built up their economic power to the point they started to see themselves as the center of Earth and "civilized society",
The things that made Western Europe the center of the Earth as you describe it has nothing to do with the color of our skin but rather with the effects of the industrial revolution, our secular society and Montesquieu's Trias Politica which separates the powers of law-making, law enforcing and judging.
I'm not denying the injustices you described, but they are terrible historic stains on an otherwise well organized and overall compassionate society that has an immense introspective and self correcting ability. Racism, sexism etc. all exist but are not regarded as the norm. Regardless of every injustice existing today, I firmly believe Western Europe is still the best place to live world wide regardless of your religion, skin color or sexual preference.
Thank you, that's exactly what this debate is all about. You have your truth and I have mine. The funny thing is neither of us are fully wrong. We just see different things on the same subject. I say a cat is wonderful pet that can provide companionship to a lonely old person or child, you say a cat is a predatory animal that wreaks havoc to local wildlife at night when it goes out. We're both right. If we listen to each other we both get a fuller picture.
Neither of us, nore Hustler_One will leave this debate having fully changed our general point of view. If you want to find proof Western Europe is rotten to the core you will absolutely find it. Just like it's not hard for me to point out why in 2026 it's the greatest society on the planet.
I hope that with my little essay on the Trans Atlantic slave trade, I was able to add to the view you already had. Where's the loss in that I would argue.
What I will often try to do is see where someone else is coming from. What are they seeing that I'm not. When you do that, sometimes you'll get surprised. You don't change your view but you add to it. The number one benefit is it helps people lessen the anger, hate and distrust that's plaguing us in this day and age. I don't know the first thing about who you are but I am sensing a lot of anger coming from your posts. That's not necessary, we're just debating here, worst thing that can happen is we both don't take anything away from it.
Having said that. Can you clarify:
"People live in delusion city. In my country the regarded norms are WILDLY out of place with the actual norms."
The things that made Western Europe the center of the Earth as you describe it has nothing to do with the color of our skin
I certainly would not describe any one nation or region as the center of Earth, and I'm keenly aware that being white does not make one exceptional. However, this doesn't change the fact that Europe is the cradle of both colonialism and eugenics, and that many Europeans (to this day, considering the increasing popularity of far right politicians) believe that any culture which isn't theirs or any ethnicity that's different from theirs is inferior. Historically, Europeans ensured non-white people either conformed to their cultural standards or were exterminated. They are responsible for a number of mass genocide events across the American continent, for one. The indigenous people of the American continent (a diverse set of cultures and societies) were almost entirely wiped out and replaced by European immigrants and populations forcefully removed from their homeland by way of slavery. That you describe this as a "historic stain" just goes to show that whatever perspective you have of this is solely of the oppressor rather than of the oppressed.
but rather with the effects of the industrial revolution, our secular society and Montesquieu's Trias Politica which separates the powers of law-making, law enforcing and judging.
Those things also don't really justify anything in terms of putting one group of people ahead of others. Such "advancements" are all built on several forms of exploitation, be it of non-whites or even of the poorest among the whites themselves, so it's no surprise at all that the status quo this resulted in is steeped in racism, sexism and inequality.
The indigenous people of the American continent (a diverse set of cultures and societies) were almost entirely wiped out and replaced by European immigrants
Yes and no, it's true that the arrival of European settlers brought about a high death toll amongst native Americans. However not just in the way you think. By far the biggest factor was Eurasian diseases like smallpox and measles that wreaked havoc amongst the natives. No exact numbers are known but I believe it was well over 10 million people that died from those diseases.
Outside of that there's also what the Spanish referred to as "extermination wars" between the Comanche and the Apache. The native tribes, and not just those two, were killing each other on an industrial scale long before settlers got there. All this not to say no injustice was done to native Americans by Europeans (and vice versa!) but it's absolutely not the case Europeans went in there like homicidal maniacs shooting every native on sight. They didn't need to. Even to this day there's vast stretches of land that are extremely thinly populated.
All in all, pretty much every culture throughout history has had a rich history of violence. If you want to talk genocide, how about the Mongols, these fine gentlemen killed an estimated 40 million people during their expansion campaigns. That's half the total casualty number of WWII, (and that's without firearms, bombs, tanks and fighter planes).
Trust me, the problem isn't white people, the problem is people.
Which is why it's so important to have a society that has laws that protect the weak, be that physically weak or weak in numbers. Laws that aren't based in religion or ideology. Even more importantly: power that is distributed. The people that make the rules can never be the ones that also enforce them let alone judge the people that break them. These are the things that defined the modern West as it rose to what it is today.
For every fact you think we should be ashamed, there's plenty of others to be extremely proud of.
@NetshadeX I don't think you should be ashamed of anything, really. I also don't handwave centuries of colonial theft and violence by saying that the indigenous people simply either died of disease (diseases that the colonists brought) or "native on native" violence, nor would I ever be proud of the results of such theft and violence. Certainly, the colonists didn't need to kill or oppress any of the indigenous people, yet strangely the American continent nowadays is for the most part Catholic, while the vestiges of native culture and religion die a slow death and African diaspora religions face incredible amounts of prejudice. Also, I do think you should be minimally aware that laws are not an European invention nor do they protect the weakest in society, considering money exists.
the American continent nowadays is for the most part Catholic, while the vestiges of native culture and religion die a slow death and African diaspora religions face incredible amounts of prejudice.
I don't have any research to support it but my instinct tells me the only reason that is the case is because not enough people support those still. Too many of those people see the prosperity and pursue that instead. I posted earlier in this thread that I'm convinced that since the arrival of the internet we're slowly morphing into a single race and culture. The world has become significantly smaller and online culture is basically it's own thing now. That in turn flows back into the real world.
On the subject of money I suspect we're on the same page. I absolutely agree with you that it's a problem. Well, not money as such, but greed. Greed has always been there but in today's society I'd argue it's a bigger problem than it's ever been in history. Especially excessive revenue gained through social media. Content creators both at an amateur level as well as pro mainstream media outlets are well aware that polarization sells. That's why most articles and videos you find online are provocatively formulated because they rile people up and generate revenue with clicks, views and subscriptions. It's "easy" money. There's a vast number of both left wing and right wing channels that generate wealth at the cost of people's mental wellbeing. People literally get driven to madness. Mental health issues, especially amongst the young, are on the rise. I see social media/greed as the main cause there.
This thread was off topic and borderline trolling when it was created, it has now descended into culture war arguments, is there any point in it continuing?
This thread was off topic and borderline trolling when it was created, it has now descended into culture war arguments, is there any point in it continuing?
Well it's under general discussion and I feel the tone is civil enough where it doesn't need to be removed.
This thread was off topic and borderline trolling when it was created, it has now descended into culture war arguments, is there any point in it continuing?
@MattGPT this. let's close it. for me it was already fine when the team (mostly) stopped referring to everyone who posted any question for DF Direct Weekly as a "he"
for me it was already fine when the team (mostly) stopped referring to everyone who posted any question for DF Direct Weekly as a "he"
I'll need to pay attention next time I watch a direct, but I would hope they refer to patrons as they/them since most display names are not gendered. Seeing some of the responses to this thread, it does seem like the majority of DF's audience is male, but one shouldn't be assuming individual people's gender for no reason.
Forums
Topic: DF diversity?
Posts 61 to 74 of 74
Sorry, this topic has been locked.